Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

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heraldcoupe
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Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#1 Post by heraldcoupe » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:35 pm

I've had my 214 cabrio laid up esince June. It failed it's MOT on emissions, other erratic running issues suggested head gasket issues, past history suggested a new gasket had been fitted quite recently.
I've finally had a chance to take off the head to find the gasket is MLS type, everything seems in good order but there is evidence of coolant in the oil, something which wasn't evident via the filler cap or dipstick. The cylinders sit proud and there is no evidence of any cutting into the cylinder head.

I decided to go for the latest spec gasket with uprated bolts and oil rail, which I am now in the process of fitting. The rail is in place, with the sump ready to re-install, which is where I find my first real problem. The oil rail is fouling the sump, it moves it a couple of mm adjacent to the oil pickup. My engine is the earlier wet liner type, sump is pressed steel. Is this a known issue, and if so, is there a recognised fix?

Cheers,
Bill.

Edit:
looking at images online, the later alloy sump looks as though it has greater clearance in this area. Can anyone confirm?

Mr Teddy Bear
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#2 Post by Mr Teddy Bear » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:30 pm

I haven't heard of this problem cropping up on the forum before, although that could be down to you being the first person to fit the strengthened oil rail to a wet liner engine!

How about marking the edge of the rail with engineers blue, offering up the sump. identifying the interference points. Then filing a chamfer across the rail?
Teddy Bear

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heraldcoupe
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#3 Post by heraldcoupe » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:09 pm

Mr Teddy Bear wrote:that could be down to you being the first person to fit the strengthened oil rail to a wet liner engine!
I was beginning to wonder if that might be the case.
How about marking the edge of the rail with engineers blue, offering up the sump. identifying the interference points. Then filing a chamfer across the rail?
I'm a bit reluctant to start attacking the rail. I've found some reasonably priced alloy sumps for K's on ebay, I'm inclinded to get one and see how it fits. Typically nothing local though, so it will be next weekend before I can have another play with it.

Cheers,
Bill.

heraldcoupe
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#4 Post by heraldcoupe » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:59 pm

I have bought an alloy sump on ebay, I should have this around the end of the week. I know that I'll need longer screws to fit the new sump, but can anyone tell me how long they should be? I understand there are 12 of one side, with the last two being a little longer.

I'll be visiting my fastener supplier on business before the end of the week, but chances are I'll be there before the repalacement sump reaches me to take my own measurements,

Cheers,
Bill.

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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#5 Post by crepello » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:43 pm

Umm. I hesitate to mention. There's also the the question of the bolt sizes increasing from 6mm to 8mm sometime during the tin sump era.
According to Rimmer's it looks like 6mm up to Engine 925235, 8mm Engine 925236 on. Presumably the alloy sump inherited the 8mm size. Rimmer's do suggest that the 8mm sump is a valid substitute for the 6mm, but presumably 6mm bolts will not have been manufactured specifically for the alloy casting flange thickness.

heraldcoupe
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#6 Post by heraldcoupe » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:18 pm

Nothing's ever straightforward...

I don't have the car at home so I can't check, but I'm fairly certain the bolts are 6mm, the heads I'm sure took an 8mm socket.

If I can get suitable M6 bolts then I'll cut some tube to sleeve the holes in the sump, with oversize washers under the bolt heads to ensure decent clamping force and sealing.

Cheers,
Bill.

961tat
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#7 Post by 961tat » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:39 pm

Hi bill

Building a 2000 1.8 at the moment and they are 8mm dia ,lengths of bolts are , 12 off 25 mm long under bolt head .
2 off 60mm long under bolt head .
you could drill m6 hole out to 6.8 mm and retap with 8mm x 1.25 pitch tap , aslong as there is enough wall thickness on cast .


all the best

961tat :)

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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#8 Post by E_T_V » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:16 pm

The sump on the later ones (alloy sump) is structural - it is often used as part of the engine mount - hence the bigger diameter bolts. You don't need to use bigger bolts so long as you can get it oil-tight.

heraldcoupe
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Re: Strengthened oil rail, now sump won't fit

#9 Post by heraldcoupe » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:45 pm

961tat wrote:Building a 2000 1.8 at the moment and they are 8mm dia ,lengths of bolts are , 12 off 25 mm long under bolt head .
2 off 60mm long under bolt head .
Excellent information, thanks very much.
you could drill m6 hole out to 6.8 mm and retap with 8mm x 1.25 pitch tap , aslong as there is enough wall thickness on cast .
I'm very reluctant to start drilling and tapping the block, particularly as I'm working under the car.
E_T_V wrote:The sump on the later ones (alloy sump) is structural - it is often used as part of the engine mount - hence the bigger diameter bolts. You don't need to use bigger bolts so long as you can get it oil-tight.
The structural element explains the change, and of course doesn't matter in the case of my R8. I'm looking at shouldered bolts, if I can get the right size, or else cutting tube-spacers to centre the bolts in the holes.

Thanks for the help, hopefully the rest will be straightforward,

Cheers,
Bill.

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