It LIVES!! was: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

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heraldcoupe
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It LIVES!! was: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#1 Post by heraldcoupe » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:59 pm

Can anyone point me to a source for the latest SAIC type MLS gasket, and bolts that are confirmed to be 10.9 grade? I already have the strengthened oil rail installed, all of the kits I can find for online order include this and I really don't need another. 'Phoning around in working hours isn't really an option tomorrow, so ordering online would be the quickest option, otherise it's email suppliers and hope for responses.

I've previously picked the collective brains regarding the emissions problems with my R8 214 Cabriolet. To recap, there were a few erratic running issues, with emissions failing to meet MOT standard, plus traces of K-seal int he water. Despite a lack of firm evidence, draining the oil and pulling the head revealed plenty of water in the oil - the head gasket itself looked OK.

I bit the bullet and decided to take off the head and fit the 'ultimate' gasket set with the SAIC sourced gasket, strengthened oil rail and high tensile bolts.
When tightening the bolts, they all went to 20NM OK, but the second and third stages felt different between bolts, I had a feeling something wasn't right but was committed by this time.

It's now all back together, but when filled with coolant, there's immediate leakage between the head and block. Something went wrong, I suspect that some foreign object got between the faces when installing the head, which I obviously didn't notice.

There's a temptation to move the car on rather than persevere, but I don't like admitting defeat over something so simple, or parting with otherwise good cars for that matter. I need to get it soprted though as it's holding up other projects,

Cheers,
Bill.
Last edited by heraldcoupe on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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1234dist
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#2 Post by 1234dist » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:05 pm

http://www.dmgrs.co.uk
:cool

I'd ask where you're located, but i can't be ar sed repeating my broken record.
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heraldcoupe
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#3 Post by heraldcoupe » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:14 pm

I'm in Wiltshire.

DMGRS is who I got the kit from, but they don't list the parts seperately. They've been easy to deal with, I'd just like to get the parts ordered and on their way,

Cheers,
Bill.

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1234dist
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#4 Post by 1234dist » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:19 pm

Just email matt via the site, it would take too long to list all the things he has for sale
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E_T_V
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#5 Post by E_T_V » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:00 pm

Matt is helpful and I've used stuff from him before including some stuff on my last K series rebuild.

But beware the new SAIC gasket is still a MLS one and if liners are low or uneven then it'll leak.

If liners are even and proud by 4 thou then MLS is the one to use (either a branded one or the one from SAIC). If they are low or uneven then the elastomer gasket is a better choice. (The best choice would be to correct the liner height which can be done with shims).

I bought cheapy BGA headbolts and discovered they were infact the ones sold as upgraded items, i.e. the 10.9 rating

The cheapest place to source the elastomer payen gasket is weirdly amazon (from the payen shop).

heraldcoupe
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#6 Post by heraldcoupe » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:50 pm

Mat got back to me and offered a quote for just the gasket and bolts, so I'm now OK in that respect.

Before ordering, I had an opportunity to remove the head to find the cause of the problem. All was not well...

Photobucket is down at the moment so I can't show the images, but in short, the tops of the lines have compressed and cut the edges of the gasket, laving slivers of metal wire around each bore. Looking at it now, it appears that the liners may be sitting rather high, rather than having dropped which I understand is the usual failure. I couldn't put my hands on a set of feeler gauges in the workshop, but I'm sure the height is greater than 4 thou above the block.
Any suggestions why this would be?

So at the moment it's all on hold - there's no point in getting another gasket and destroying it the same way. Maybe time to cut my losses and look for another engine,

Cheers,
Bill.

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#7 Post by 1234dist » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:23 pm

civilised way would be to drop the block, disassemble, get the block dect (like a skim of a head) and start all over again.

The Clarkson way of doing it is course emery cloth and a piece of wood. going to smoother grades.
Unless you are perfect ( :laughing2 ) this can lead to unevenness.

Alternate, (my own thoughts, could be wrong, don't quote me) what about some thick steel 10mm and a large hammer?

Plate covering all 4 cylinders and and the sides couple of taps.

You're right though, dropping is usually the biggest fault.

Now the stupid comments are out of the way, the official way is to have the liners removed and re-seated at a rough cost of around £300 on a disassembled block.

Or look on ebay for a replacement
Pastor @ Rover Revival NFP Garage
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heraldcoupe
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#8 Post by heraldcoupe » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:28 pm

1234dist wrote:Or look on ebay for a replacement
It's starting to look like the easiest option, at least to get the car back on the road in the short term.

Cheers,
Bill.

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#9 Post by 1234dist » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:31 pm

try not to look at the mems 3 engines as its a bit more work to make them work

:thumbup
Image

:thumbdown
Image
Pastor @ Rover Revival NFP Garage
220 Coupe turbo K785OAT
218 VVC Cabriolet R220OVR
220 GTI M-series J777RAL
Mercedes C270 diesel P80CJM
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heraldcoupe
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#10 Post by heraldcoupe » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:21 pm

1234dist wrote:try not to look at the mems 3 engines as its a bit more work to make them work
More work is the last thing I need :)

Cheers,
Bill.

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#11 Post by crepello » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:54 pm

Don't suppose the crankshaft moved while the head is off? That could have shifted the liners, which is why the flywheel locking tool is specified in the Rover version of the WSMs.

BTW, if a block is skimmed as Dist mentioned, what compensation would be possible for the consequently higher tops of the liners?

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#12 Post by heraldcoupe » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:04 am

crepello wrote:Don't suppose the crankshaft moved while the head is off? That could have shifted the liners,
No, it was kept in position. Moving the crank wouldn't have moved the liners in unison, for two forced upwards, the other two would have a downward force exerted.

Here are some pictures of the damaged gasket

Image

Image

heraldcoupe
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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#13 Post by heraldcoupe » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:42 pm

Well I've been back in the workshop for another look.

My kneejerk assessment that the liners were raised was wrong. Unfamiliarity with the engine led to my mis-interpreting which part was referred to in the measurement. It turns out the liners all sit between 2-3 thou above the deck. So that little panic is over.

What does concern me is that the 'ultimate' gasket did not sit cleanly over the shoulderr. Once more, unfamiliarity meant I didn't recognise this as a problem, though with hindsight it should have been blindingly obvious...
I dug out the previously fitted gasket which fits perfectly around each of the shouldered liners, where the new one sits on top.

So is this something anyone else has encountered? It seems like the elastomer gasket is my best option in any case given the liner heights, but I am concerned about the other one not physically fitting,

Cheers,
Bill.

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#14 Post by E_T_V » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:28 pm

The gasket should sit on top of the liners as that is how it seals.

Image20160521_121652 by E_T_V, on Flickr

Image20160521_121624 by E_T_V, on Flickr

The photos are of a 1.8 so your liners will be much thicker.

Image20160511_203820 by E_T_V, on Flickr

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Re: 'Ultimate' gasket and bolts

#15 Post by crepello » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:35 pm

heraldcoupe wrote:I dug out the previously fitted gasket which fits perfectly around each of the shouldered liners, where the new one sits on top.
Now there's a clue! I'm pretty sure the shouldered liners identify your block as a wet liner/closed deck one. This should be robust enough to reward your persistence. My engines are both of this type and I had been puzzling about compatibility with MLS gaskets myself, and not finding any information anywhere. You should read Vulgalour's thread where he's had a successful outcome using another manufacturer's take on the MLS technology. Judging by his photos, he's got the self same gasket as I have sitting in its shrink wrap beside me, which is a BGA CH9353M. This has conventional fire rings, and measured through the shrink wrap, these have a bore of 82.5mm, if you'd like to check your liner shoulder diameter.

Edit: E_T_V posted while I was composing the above. His photos show a later damp liner/open deck block - hence the deep coolant 'wells' around the liners, and non-shouldered liners.

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