Rover 220GSI MOT fail

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swanndoggz
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Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#1 Post by swanndoggz » Fri May 10, 2019 3:20 pm

Took the 220 in for its MOT and was beyond confidence that it was going to get a clean bill of health,

Got called into the workshop with the usual "come have a look at this", the box section where the rear anti roll bar mount attaches has rotted out causing the anti roll bar to become insecure.

So not pleased! anybody else had this and or repaired this problem?

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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#2 Post by 220 GSi turbo » Fri May 10, 2019 5:16 pm

It happened to my 220T many years ago, Jonny. It wasn't rot, just metal fatigue (probably caused by my car spending its first 45,000 miles living in Cornwall where even the 'A' roads are like the country lanes we have up here in the Midlands!)

I got a very skilled welder to do the repair: from what I remember we dropped the fuel tank to give him clear and safe access.
Although the weld is visible, it is a very tidy repair and has given no further problems since. (Rather than patch over it, as many would have done, he opened up the box section and repaired from the inside out: there is a hefty piece of metal inside the section that contains the threads that the ARB bracket bolts screw into).

My MoT tester has commented on it several times when he has been looking underneath: he remembers seeing a few other R8s over the years that have had the same problem.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#3 Post by Johnny 216GSi » Fri May 10, 2019 8:55 pm

Interesting that the sub frames are now causing problems.

We've seen at least 3 steering-rack sub-frames mentioned with rot through the outer skin (including my own before I replaced it).

Looks like sub-frames should be moved up the list of "things to look for" on the R8. We all tend to assume everything is solid on these cars and just look for the lower rear wheel arches and sill-ends. Now they're 30 years old and the ability to repair rear arches (and swap wings, etc.) is well understood, "what are the subframes like" is probably what everyone needs to be asking.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#4 Post by 1234dist » Fri May 10, 2019 9:12 pm

the issue is you can't bodge weld them now, so good ones are going to command a premium
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#5 Post by Mr Teddy Bear » Sat May 11, 2019 11:21 am

Yep there is a purge on subframes going on down here, epecially on Nova's I'm told. Also told that if the tester see's that it's been welded, that is a straight fail, whether bodged or not; not explicit iin the MOT Regs though? :S

If one has been refabricated, ground smooth and painted no one will be any the wiser though.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#6 Post by Cromp85 » Sat May 11, 2019 12:23 pm

Johnny 216GSi wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:55 pm
We've seen at least 3 steering-rack sub-frames mentioned with rot through the outer skin (including my own before I replaced it).
At what location is the steering-rack sub-frame most likely to rot out?
I had mine go under the drivers side ARB mounting bracket.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#7 Post by Johnny 216GSi » Sat May 11, 2019 12:36 pm

Cromp85 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:23 pm
Johnny 216GSi wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:55 pm
We've seen at least 3 steering-rack sub-frames mentioned with rot through the outer skin (including my own before I replaced it).
At what location is the steering-rack sub-frame most likely to rot out?
I had mine go under the drivers side ARB mounting bracket.
You've hit the nail on the head. Exactly there, most likely - although mine was on the passenger side.

I've noticed on R8s you can't say "it's always the driver's side" or "it's always the passenger side". Quite literally when you're looking around the cars, you notice some are completely rust-free on one side, and some are completely rust free on the other. Must be down to the types of roads the car has been driven on.

Apparently on the 214 sub-frame, those heavyweight supporting struts at each end of the steering rack subframe are plated over but not sealed at all, so salty road water gets trapped at the bottom around the threaded nut where the front lower arms bolt on and so rot is prone to develop there too.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#8 Post by swanndoggz » Sat May 11, 2019 3:53 pm

Interesting about the sub frames, had a look at mine on the ramp and it's clean from all the preservative it's had one, its the rear anti roll bar mount which is integral to the bodyshell. Looks a fiddly fix, seems this cars been a bit of a omen over the years *laughs*.

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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#9 Post by crepello » Sat May 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Johnny 216GSi wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:36 pm
Apparently on the 214 sub-frame, those heavyweight supporting struts at each end of the steering rack subframe are plated over but not sealed at all, so salty road water gets trapped at the bottom around the threaded nut where the front lower arms bolt on and so rot is prone to develop there too.
That's where mine went. I've pondered what could be done to provide a drain on the replacement that wouldn't also encourage turbulent spray to find its way in.
I've got a couple of spares tucked away for the inevitable. These aren't easy to get from DIY breakers as there's usually only a sleeper's thickness ground clearance at best.

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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#10 Post by Johnny 216GSi » Sat May 11, 2019 4:21 pm

crepello wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:54 pm
Johnny 216GSi wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:36 pm
Apparently on the 214 sub-frame, those heavyweight supporting struts at each end of the steering rack subframe are plated over but not sealed at all, so salty road water gets trapped at the bottom around the threaded nut where the front lower arms bolt on and so rot is prone to develop there too.
That's where mine went. I've pondered what could be done to provide a drain on the replacement that wouldn't also encourage turbulent spray to find its way in.
I've got a couple of spares tucked away for the inevitable. These aren't easy to get from DIY breakers as there's usually only a sleeper's thickness ground clearance at best.
Probably down to how you choose to renovate the part. Have it galvanised, or choose a super-hero paint. I've used Epoxy mastic 1-2-1 because it came out well on test. Just a very good surface prep and all-over paint seal with something tough. Not sure you need to think too carefully about how you'd add a drain hole. It certainly needs to be in a position where any pooled water drains out and nothing is left inside, but remember those struts are open on the 216 and that specific area isn't prone to any rust as far as I can see with the sub-frames I've looked at on scrap cars. The replacement I chose and my original that I actually swapped it with were also rust free in that region. I suppose there's the inadvertent "gotcha" where you add a drain hole, it works, the original tendency to collect water is solved, but it allows ingress and pooling to somewhere else on the car. There's a lot to be said for body designs that allow all water to just drain vertically straight off every surface, but there must be a natural inclination during the design phase to try and shield or box cavities in to stop water getting into areas it shouldn't in the first place. Invariably this leads to the "gotcha" outcome when water does get in and just sits there, and as a flaw it only becomes apparent when the cars start showing questionable integrity a few years after they became available, tarnishing their image and damaging sales.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#11 Post by swanndoggz » Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am

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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#12 Post by GTiJohn » Mon May 13, 2019 11:54 am

Fatigue cracks rather than corrosion - it's the straightness of the fractures that are the give away.

Plating inside the section is the only way to sort that without it being seen. Plating on the outside would be visible and move the mounting points by the thickness of the plate but this wouldn't be significant IMHO.

The material thickness of that section may not have been increased as we upped the RARB diameter.... or not thickened up enough obviously :blushing
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#13 Post by swanndoggz » Mon May 13, 2019 1:16 pm

GTiJohn wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:54 am
Fatigue cracks rather than corrosion - it's the straightness of the fractures that are the give away.

Plating inside the section is the only way to sort that without it being seen. Plating on the outside would be visible and move the mounting points by the thickness of the plate but this wouldn't be significant IMHO.

The material thickness of that section may not have been increased as we upped the RARB diameter.... or not thickened up enough obviously :blushing
Yes, having had a better look its stress, its just added onto the list of welding jobs. think cutting our and fabricating would be simple enough its just a faff to get at. another issue would be reproducing and lining up the captive nuts holding the mount in place. so ill update when we can be bothered to get it sorted. its odd how its just the passenger side whats effected. i guess anything can happen with the poor state of the roads.

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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#14 Post by Johnny 216GSi » Mon May 13, 2019 4:14 pm

swanndoggz wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:16 pm
Another issue would be reproducing and lining up the captive nuts holding the mount in place.
You could just make up a plate jig - couple of clamp plates either side with a close fit to the beam and butting up to that seam weld for some lateral location, then perhaps just put some washers on the bolts, screw them into the beam, and weld some 3 or 4mm rod to them and the plates. One locating jig.

Best if you could plate up inside with a heavy gauge steel, do a cosmetic sheet over the top and grind off the weld so it looks original.
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Re: Rover 220GSI MOT fail

#15 Post by 1234dist » Mon May 13, 2019 6:00 pm

we fixed worse than that on 25x's old 400

was so strong when we finished we used it as a jacking point for the 2 post, because it was the only solid part of the car :laughing2
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